(Intro music )
Alexandria 0:07
Welcome back, and thank you for joining me for another episode of Interrupting Racism. Status Quo would have it that white supremacy reigns, people of color remain in a marginalized status, that Black lives and trans lives continue to not matter, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, until they’ve given up hope, repeated toxic patterns for generations, ended up in jail, or six feet under. Everything that we do in opposition to the status quo is interrupting racism. Today, I want to bring you all an episode entitled Domestic Terrorists. Following the January 6 attack on the US Capitol, there’s been so much news coverage, so many think pieces and opinions. Now, I’m not a political scientist by any means, but I wanted to drop in and add a bit of my two cents to the pot. Joining me today for this conversation is Taylor. Who you may remember from episodes one and two, Black Girl Magic parts A and B. Let’s start the show.
(Music fades out)
Hey, Taylor, welcome back to this show. Thank you for taking the time to chat with me again. And this time at your house, I’m here with you at your house (laughter).
Taylor 1:15
Yes!
Alexandria 1:16
So we’re recording together and we’re chatting about what happened at the Capitol and what we may have to look forward to in the coming months emotionally, as a people, as a country who knows; but we’re gonna chat about it. As I was thinking about this episode, and writing this episode and what I wanted to say on this topic; I recalled you quoting Maya, who said something like “social media will be looked at as archives in the future”. And so documenting these times, from personal perspectives, like diaries, ones that people can look back on and listen to, and really get an understanding of what it might have felt like to experience all that’s going on right now. And so I thought that that’s what I really wanted this to be, like a verbal diary of the thoughts and emotions that were present for you and for me, when the Capitol Building of the United States of America (laughter)– okay– was stormed by white supremacists under the direction of a sitting US president.
Taylor 2:12
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 2:13
Yeah.
Taylor 2:14
Yeah.
Alexandria 2:14
What time in history.
Alexandria & Taylor 2:15
(Laughter)
Taylor 2:15
What a time–
Alexandria 2:15
–Like a time in history!
Taylor 2:17
What a concept, what a concept. I’m really grateful that it’s in this format, because at first I was really nervous because I know that once it happened, it was a lot to unpack. And I was like, I have to do some research. And I have to really get into the history and what this means for us as a country. But I like that we’re kind of using this as a documentation of, of what it felt like those moments of like watching it and experiencing it, as friends, as people that live in this country and just watching on the news. So I’m excited to be here and have this conversation for sure.
Alexandria 2:47
I can’t help but think of parallels, thinking about like the Civil Rights Movement– and not trying to compare the two because, that’s not it. But I’m wondering like, what my children and my grandchildren are going to be thinking, looking back on us like, What did that feel like? How do you even capture that?
Taylor 3:03
Right?
Alexandria 3:04
Yeah.
Taylor 3:05
It’s definitely (scoffs)–I think that’s really tough to even think about, and thank God we have pictures and videos and, and conversations like this to capture just those raw feelings. Yeah that’s, that’s like– it’s wild to think about, honestly. It really is.
Alexandria 3:21
And I just think about, I guess 2020 was such a wild year, and we are very desensitized as a people. Because what happened on January 6th– on January 6th, two weeks ago, white supremacists went and attacked the United States Capitol. That just sounds crazy. That’s something you see in a movie or a TV show. And you’re like, “well, that’s farfetched”–
Taylor 3:46
–Right. Right.
Alexandria 3:46
“That–that would never happen”–
Taylor 3:47
–Right.
Alexandria 3:47
–And then it happens and you go, “Oh!”… And then we just keep living our lives.
Taylor 3:51
Mmh hmm, right.
Alexandria 3:52
Yeah. So I first wanted to define two words that hold a lot of weight that are so familiar during these times and are used with discretion, depending on who we’re talking about. And so the words are terrorists and terrorism. Taylor, would you like to read the definitions that are here, cuz I don’t need to talk the whole time (laughter).
Taylor 4:14
Well, I love hearing your voice, but I can jump in. We have the the Oxford Dictionary actually defines terrorist as a person who uses unlawful violence and intimidation, especially against civilians in the pursuit of political aims. That’s very interesting. And then Merriam Webster says a terrorist is an advocate or practitioner of terrorism as a means of coercion. That’s– those are different definitions, but we can apply them both in this instance.
Alexandria 4:15
Right, right.
Taylor 4:24
And that is quite interesting.
Alexandria 4:47
Okay, they don’t necessarily say the same thing but, word. Put together and that’s what happened on January 6th.
Taylor 4:52
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 4:52
Right?
Taylor 4:52
Right.
Alexandria 4:53
Yeah, so, terrorists.
Taylor 4:54
Terrorists.
Alexandria 4:55
Yes.
Taylor 4:55
Yeah.
Alexandria 4:55
So then the FBI, whose job is to protect The US from terrorist attacks defines the act of domestic terrorism as violent, criminal acts committed by individuals and or groups to further ideological goals stemming from domestic influences, such as those of political, religious, social, racial or environmental nature.
Taylor 5:20
Hmm.
Alexandria 5:22
And again (laughter)– that’s why I named this episode Domestic Terrorism because that’s exactly what it is.
Taylor 5:28
That’s exactly what it is.
Alexandria 5:30
And people are so afraid to call white people terrorists.
Taylor 5:33
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 5:34
Not that they haven’t done it. Yes, it’s been done. But people are so hesitant to do it. They’re like, “well, maybe he wasn’t well”.
Taylor 5:42
Right. “He’s a family man”–
Alexandria 5:43
–“He’s a family, man. We didn’t see it coming”.
(Exhausted sighs)
But it’s so easy for people to call other people terrorists.
Taylor 5:49
Yeah.
Alexandria 5:49
So yeah, I just wanted to call it what it was. White supremacists and racists moving as terrorists–
Taylor 5:49
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 5:55
Committing domestic terrorism.–
Taylor 5:57
Yes.
Alexandria 5:57
–on U.S. soil.
Taylor 5:58
Yes.
Alexandria 5:59
Yes.
Taylor 5:59
Yes.
Alexandria 6:00
Yep, hmm. So that also makes me think about the word racist, because in the same way that people don’t use the word, terrorist freely, they don’t like using the word racist freely either. There’s this hesitation to call someone a racist, or to call them out for doing something racist. There’s this preference to protect the image and emotional well being of the person being accused of racist acts with much less regard for the people who are affected by those acts. So I just– who– do you?–was it?– Somebody compared being called a racist to being called the N word? And I said, hmmmmmm?
Taylor 6:34
Huh, now that’s– (Laughter)
Alexandria 6:36
I said, I said–
Taylor 6:38
Now–
Alexandria 6:39
No!
Taylor 6:40
That’s something to mull over, because I just have never heard that. Grasping at straws is what they call it.
Alexandria 6:48
So today, as we talk about racist, white supremacist people and ideals being forcibly pushed forward by domestic terrorists, who meant to further their ideological goals by way of unlawful violence and intimidation; I don’t want to hear any qualms from anyone about how the people who attacked the Capitol are neither nor because they are all of the above. With that said, I think we should just get into the conversation.
Taylor 7:18
Let’s get into it.
Alexandria 7:19
Let’s just jump in. So what were some of your initial thoughts that went through your mind when you heard about what was happening at the Capitol building?
Taylor 7:29
I think the initial feeling I had when– actually, I have a group chat and they all were kind of just throwing videos in and I was like, “What is everyone talking about?”. And then I turned on my TV and went to YouTube and watched just a live stream that CNN had. And fear. The very first idea for me was fear. Because I think the the most frightening thing about Trump’s presidency, and the most frightening thing about just this last four years was that it emboldened so many people to act in a way we had, we had prior to this time deemed unacceptable and simply, you know, unheard of. And now it’s emboldening these people to think, “well, I could just wild out”. And so my first thought was text my family group chat and say, everyone stay in the house, everyone locked down, everyone, protect yourselves. I texted my family members that lived in DC, and I just was telling them, you know, are you okay? How are you doing? Where are you at? I put on Twitter, and on Instagram, if anyone in DC feels unsafe, let me know I’m sending you– I could send you an Uber to wherever you need to be. So my first thought was safety and fear at the same time, making sure that while white people out there wildin’ out and they’re doing their thing, you know that it didn’t become our fight that we weren’t dragged into, and that we didn’t find ourselves being abused; which many Black people that were in that area did find themselves in dangerous situations, because you had an influx of white supremacists, like you said, and terrorists, domestic terrorists flocking to DC. That’s a scary situation. So I think my initial feelings were fear. I had disbelief, but I immediately kind of jumped into this feeling of protectiveness of I need to look out for every Black person, I know, friend or foe, and I need to make sure everyone’s good. So I think that was my overbearing feeling. Of course, sadness was playing in the back of my brain and just kind of overwhelmed. I think you mentioned earlier that we’ve become desensitized. And I think that’s the perfect word because it should have been a moment of shock.
Alexandria 9:31
Mmh hmm.
Taylor 9:31
But it was it because it was kind of this moment of they’ve been telling us what they’re going to do over and over and over again. The President has instructed them on what to do over and over and over again. Now they’re doing it. They’re only making good on the promises they made to us.
Alexandria 9:45
Facts.
Taylor 9:46
So the fact that we quote unquote, weren’t prepared for it is in many ways unbelievable because they have simply put told us word for word what they were going to do and they just did it. So those were my initial feelings and thoughts and and also actions when everything first happened.
Alexandria 10:03
I always give it to you because just like you said in the first episode, you’re always thinking about other people like you said, “friend or foe, I’m trying to make sure everybody’s good”, you’re sending out texts. I’m gonna tell you, I found out about it because of you. Because I was at my cousin’s house, we were hanging out with her kids.
Taylor 10:19
As you should be.
Alexandria 10:19
Like we were just having a regular day. And when I’m with my family, I really don’t have my phone on me like that. So I didn’t have my phone. And I picked it up. And I think you had messaged me like an hour before. And I was like, “What’s this about the Capitol, like the Capitol? Well, let me look online”. And all I saw was lawlessness.
Taylor 10:19
Yes!
(Laughter)
Yes!
Alexandria 10:42
Like??
Taylor 10:42
Yes.
Alexandria 10:42
From the same group of people who support a man who supposedly was all about law and order. Y’all were quite lawless. I didn’t even know what I was looking at.
Taylor 10:51
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 10:52
Yeah I guess there was a part of me that was like you said, surprised but also not really, because they’d said what they said (laughter). They said it. And then they did it. They kept good on their word. When I first heard about it, I was like okay, it was definitely fear.
Taylor 11:06
Right.
Alexandria 11:07
Because in my head, I thought “we’re only but a stone’s throw away–
Taylor 11:11
Yes.
Alexandria 11:11
–from DC”.
Taylor 11:11
Yeah.
Alexandria 11:12
And I just thought about all the major cities that are here, like Philadelphia, like New York City, like Newark and whatever.
Mmh hmm.
Like what’s to stop these people from getting in their cars and continuing to drive with their illegal guns that they crossed state lines– many state lines with, to come to DC–What’s to stop them from coming up north?
Taylor 11:32
Right.
Alexandria 11:32
So my fear was just, yo what if this is not their last stop?
Taylor 11:35
(Sighs) Yeah.
Alexandria 11:36
And what if what if they are trying to take– I mean, a lot of them mentioned “1861!”. It was like “we’re in 1861!”–First of all, I don’t like them years, because anything–
(Laughter)
Anything before (laughter) The Emancipation Proclamation– really anything before 1964. But even then–
Even then.
–anything before The Emancipation Proclamation, I don’t like– uh uh, mmh mmh–don’t compare these things to that.
(Laughter)
Taylor 11:59
No!
Alexandria 12:00
Mmm mmh! So what you’re trying to say? A lot.
Taylor 12:03
A lot.
Alexandria 12:03
And we know because they brought nooses.
Taylor 12:05
Yup!
Alexandria 12:06
Which I thought, wait a minute (scoffs).
Taylor 12:08
Yes.
Alexandria 12:09
What does the noose have to do with it?
Taylor 12:10
Yes.
Alexandria 12:10
But of course we know what it has to do with it, it goes back to racism. Y’all keep trying to say that it’s not about racism. I remember when Trump first got elected, sitting in a class with a professor, and he was like, “How do y’all think this happened? What do you think, led us to this?”. And I was like, white supremacy.
Taylor 12:29
Right.
Alexandria 12:30
And he was pushing back. He was like, “Hmm, I don’t know. I think it’s more than that. I think it’s more– See okay, you’re giving me a face, they can’t–
Taylor 12:38
I wish they could see my face (laughter).
Alexandria 12:39
They can’t see your face (laughter).
Taylor 12:42
(Laughter) Wow.
Alexandria 12:42
I was just like plain and simple, it’s white supremacy. And he tried to push, “No, I think it’s more about people, they’re tired of making enough money” and whatever else. But again, I was still arguing that’s white supremacy, because there’s plenty of Black and brown people who don’t make the money that they thought they were going to make coming to this “free world”, or even just being born and raised in this “free world”. But what it is, is that white people who did not get the benefits of whiteness, are mad as hell.
Taylor 13:10
Mad as hell.
Alexandria 13:11
And they said, we gon vote this man in. And that’s how it happened. And so now here we are four years later–Yes, I was right, like I said. So we kind of talked about it a little bit like–
(Laughter)
(Inaudible)
Taylor 13:17
Yeah.
Alexandria 13:26
Not really being surprising–
Taylor 13:29
Right.
Alexandria 13:29
But what was the most surprising thing to you about this attack? Even if it– or you know, even if it wasn’t like surprising? What was the most shocking?
Taylor 13:37
Yeah.
Alexandria 13:38
Yeah.
Taylor 13:38
I think the most shocking part–Well, there were a few parts that were absolutely just–
(Laughter)
–almost ridicu–almost comedic– it would be funny if it wasn’t our reality.
Alexandria 13:49
Yeah, yeah.
Taylor 13:50
It would– I could laugh– I mean, we can laugh because that’s what we do as Black people, we we laugh through trauma because–
Alexandria 13:54
Yeah,
Taylor 13:55
If we didn’t, what would we do?
Alexandria 13:57
Cry.
(Laughter)
Taylor 13:57
Uh, cry and just, not be well.
Alexandria 14:00
Fall apart, mmh hmm.
Taylor 14:00
Fall apart quite honestly. But I think the imagery of the white people climbing that wall–
(Laughter)
Alexandria 14:08
Oh my gosh!
Taylor 14:09
–had me taken aback because–
(sighs)
I think it just was such an alarming display of the lengths that people will go. To put their bodies on the line to scale this very, very tall wall, one fell down and harmed themselves. So possibly–you could die from a drop if you you know, up the right way. Die, just to scale this wall just to make a statement about something that you believe in that as we know, was rooted in anti-blackness because we saw the noose. We also saw them reenact a murder of a Black person on the stairs just to– just to get a laugh or a guffaw or whatever it is out. Also as a statement of anti-blackness. And then I think the most surprising part was that they ran up in and were taking pictures of classified documents.
Alexandria 15:01
Right.
Taylor 15:02
Got up to my girl Nancy Pelosi–not really my girl, but went to Nancy Pelosi’s desk and were wreaking havoc in her office.
Alexandria 15:09
Mmh hmm!
Taylor 15:09
I mean, I think we’ve seen it before we’ve said it– like we always say, the same reason you never see KKK and police officers in the same spot is the same as you never see Miley Cyrus and
Alexandria & Taylor 15:20
Hannah Montana (laughter).
Taylor 15:22
I mean, we say it and we laugh and it’s we know it’s facts. But I think just the way it would have been a massacre, it would have been the largest massacre in America–
Yes.
–of in– you know, in the 2000s–
Alexandria 15:35
Right!
Taylor 15:35
–because they certainly had ones before. Um, if it were, if it were Black bodies that were doing those same acts and those same actions. And I think that, to me, was the most surprising and also the most heartbreaking, because it–it reminded me of the privilege of whiteness, and how far it goes and how far it stretches that even to disrespect one of the things that white people and white politicians–and not even just white politicians, all of America really holds to be one of the most sacred buildings that we still have left in our kind of the vision and what the pinnacle of democracy looks like. The fact that they could storm it, and break things and steal things and take pictures of documents that they had no business looking at, and going through people’s computers and in their files, and put your feet up on someone’s desk. I think it’s just– it was just such a blatant display of “look what we can do hahaha”. I think those were like, the salient moments for me that really had me just kind of taken aback again of the not surprised, but just like, dang, you know we wouldn’t even do anything like that. Because I think even at the end of the day, I’ll speak for Black people specifically, I won’t do a people of color moment. But, Black people specifically, we have so much respect for the powers that be in the way of like, we’re not going to storm it and take this and do that and whatever. That and also, we know we will get murdered.
Alexandria 15:36
Yes.
Taylor 15:48
But like the fact that we wouldn’t even think to do something like that because that’s not the way we want to take back what we feel like we deserve. I think to see them do that and to see it be praised by our President was just– it was gonna like throw your hands up like–
Alexandria 17:14
Right.
Taylor 17:14
–what are we even doing? What’s even happening right now?
Alexandria 17:16
We’re in a reality TV show.
Taylor 17:17
Yeah, yes.
Alexandria 17:18
Yeah.
Taylor 17:18
Aliens are watching us and laughing because it’s a joke, so…
Alexandria 17:21
It’s a joke. I think you’re right, somebody posted this online. And I felt it, there was a whole PowerPoint presentation about why we should stop comparing what happened at the Capitol to Black Lives Matter movements and my intention– I don’t think that’s your intention either–
Taylor 17:35
No!
Alexandria 17:35
–is not to compare the two at all.
Taylor 17:37
Right.
Alexandria 17:37
But just to understand the way white privilege works.
Taylor 17:41
Yeah.
Alexandria 17:41
First of all, no one saw a danger when they heard that all of these hundreds of 1000s of white supremacists, white nationalists, racists, were coming to DC. FBI knew they were coming.
Taylor 17:55
Yeah.
Alexandria 17:55
They were online talking about how they was coming. They planned it online, in plain sight. And no one said, let’s bring out the National Guard, let’s bring out all these things that we saw Trump do in Portland, and wherever else federalizing the National Guard against its own citizens. They were not prepared for this. Black people, even if they wanted to, could not have done it because they would have had enough manpower to stand in front like don’t even look at this building.
Taylor 18:24
Right.
Alexandria 18:24
So again, not surprising, probably just shocking.
Taylor 18:27
Right.
Alexandria 18:27
How far white supremacy goes. Wow, it must be a wild time to live as a white person like it must be wild to just live as a white person. The image that’s in my head is of that guy who was wearing the stupid “45” snow hat and holding the the podium–
Taylor 18:43
Right.
Alexandria 18:44
For the Speaker of the House. What? What?! And ya’ll took pictures? Yall posed for these criminal acts. Why? Because y’all knew and it was shown that you could do these things and no one was going to touch you. They walked away. They got on planes, they got back in cars. Now the FBI is supposed to be searching for the people all across America to find out where and who they are?
Taylor 19:06
Like ya’ll don’t listen to our phones. You don’t have any intel on them? We would–we wouldn’t have gotten past the planning stage. We would have said, “whose car you taking?” and your car was repossessed the next day.
Alexandria 19:06
Okay.
(Laughter)
Taylor 19:09
It would have been done.
We would have been on a blacklist for the like–
Oh, yeah.
Alexandria 19:21
Airplane? You was gonna take an airplane?
Taylor 19:23
No, you’re not–
Alexandria 19:24
Sweetheart!
Taylor 19:24
(scoffs) detained at the– on the taxi cab– detained in the taxi cab.
Alexandria 19:27
So, yeah. That just for me, it wasn’t even shocking. It was just, I hope it showed the rest of y’all who claimed that white privilege doesn’t exist. I hope it showed you, it surely does and it’s working very well. Very well. The man who was in that stupid viking hat or whatever heck he was wearing and he’s like a vegan or he’s got some special diet.
Taylor 19:49
Organic.
Alexandria 19:50
There are people in jail for the suspicion of having done something, it hasn’t been proven, and they don’t get no special diets.
Taylor 19:58
No.
Alexandria 19:58
That man (scoffs)– we have proof–he did– He gets a special diet? The judge that voted for that?
Taylor 20:04
Yep.
Alexandria 20:05
So yeah, shocking, but not not really surprising.
Taylor 20:08
Yeah. It’s alarming to see the visuals, I think. The visuals really were–
Alexandria 20:14
They do something.
Taylor 20:15
They to do something.
Alexandria 20:16
Yeah.
Taylor 20:17
They do something really– Yeah. Yeah. And to the point of the food thing, I saw something juxtapose they were saying he wasn’t eating because he eats an all organic something, something diet, and the judge ruled to allow him to have this special diet. And then I saw a juxtapose against which, again, you’re right, there can be trouble in drawing parallels.
Alexandria 20:36
Yes, yes. Absolutely.
Taylor 20:37
And you should be careful when drawing parallels. But I will do this one, there was a man who is Muslim and they said, “you either have to eat pork or you got–“
Alexandria 20:46
(Gasps)
Taylor 20:46
–like “or you don’t eat”. And so in that, thinking about this man is just saying, “I have this organic or whatever diet”, but this other man is saying, “I have a religious–religious and health, and also just independent choice not to eat this type of meat”; there’s a million other meats, so okay. But you know, I’m not eating this. And the option for you was to either break that religious and individual promise you made to yourself, and standard that you have for yourself or whatever it is, or starve. So I think that juxtaposition is–
Alexandria 20:54
Criminal.
Taylor 20:56
–again, criminal, and you know, how we feel about prisons. That’s another–
(Laughter)
Alexandria 21:24
Right, right.
Taylor 21:25
But yeah, it just kind of I think goes even deeper to show to your point. The treatment is so–
Alexandria 21:31
Vastly different.
Taylor 21:31
–blatantly different. Yeah. And they don’t try to hide it anymore.
Alexandria 21:33
No.
Taylor 21:34
I think that’s the scary part. There’s no more hiding. They don’t care, too. They don’t think they have to.
Alexandria 21:39
Which, you know, that really makes me just think about, I used to be afraid of saying what I want. Not coming off too radical. I shouldn’t be out there telling people you know– I don’t know, just I was very hesitant about being too vocal about how I felt about a lot of things. I felt like my career was in jeopardy.
Taylor 21:59
Yeah.
Alexandria 22:00
I felt like the opportunities that will be put before me would be in jeopardy if I were to say a lot of things that I was feeling openly. Of course, I would call people white people. And, and because I hate when people are like “Caucasians”. No, dead that because that’s not even a real thing. I can get into that another time, won’t. But I don’t use Caucasian haven’t used that for a long time. But even things like that, I would get pushback, “No, you can’t call people white people. It’s just not politically correct”. So just seeing how people respond to that, I’m like so how y’all I’m gonna respond when I tell you I’m a prison abolitionist?
(Labored sighs)
How y’all gonna respond when I tell you I don’t believe in the death penalty (laborded sighs) When I believe that Black power does not equal saying anything bad about anybody else? I was just always afraid. And then here, you have people who are like, “Afraid?! Well, I’m gonna say that I want to say I don’t care how racist it is. I’m gonna do what I want to do”.
Taylor 22:50
Yeah.
Alexandria 22:51
I mean I’m thinking about all of the people who’ve been identified; former high ranking military personnel, a school therapist, a retired firefighter, an Olympian, a state– like, the list goes on and on and on and on. And of course, that’s not surprising to me or you because like we said, why do you think these two people are not in the same room at the same time?
Taylor 23:11
Right.
Alexandria 23:12
So y’all didn’t care. Y’all didn’t say “I’m a school therapist, this could look really poorly on me if I get caught doing something like this”, “I’m a former military person, I don’t want people to think–” y’all didn’t care!
Taylor 23:23
No.
Alexandria 23:24
That’s why I don’t care anymore.
Taylor 23:25
Can’t care anymore.
Alexandria 23:27
I’m on the good side of things. And I was like (mimics fear) “I’m scared!”.
Taylor 23:29
Yeah, yeah.
Alexandria 23:30
And they’re here like (scoffs)–
Taylor 23:32
I think, because we just know we’re under such a deep microscope. And I think to your point, the people that they found to now be affiliated with extremist groups, people that were there, but then also people that are affiliated with extremist groups– I was talking to my father this morning and we were talking about how you know, they found the 12 people that they let go; I believe they’re in the National Guard
Alexandria 23:54
Huh!
Taylor 23:54
That were afiliated in some way.
Alexandria 23:56
Hmmm.
Taylor 23:56
There was some kind of connection. And then there were two people actually, that were connected to and spoke about on Facebook or whatever kind of website, about extremist groups and made some extreme views. And I just was asking him and made me think, why did it have to come to this to think, hey, the people that we are hiring to protect America at large, which includes a very diverse group of people have very, very, very violent and extremely detrimental views about populations within this group of people they were tasked to protect? Why did it take this to think about that deeply? You spoke about the people that were identified in the group of domestic terrorists and white supremacists that stormed the Capitol and you mentioned a lot of different people. And you mentioned there were relatives to judges, and I’m sure they were attorneys in there.
Mmm hmm.
The legal field is riddled with racism and white supremacy as well, as we know it is not untouched at all–
At all!
–by those things. And I think it’s really, really interesting to really sit and think about and the way that Black people are so quickly doxxed in 2021. You know, we (inaudible) who hate cancel culture because I think it moves too quick and it doesn’t give people room and all these other things. But Black people can get doxxed for anything. I mean, we can get our address put out there, our phone number where we work all of these things. And when we do it to a few white people, people go up in arms, “It’s one mistake, you can’t get judged your whole life, you shouldn’t lose your job because of one mistake!”
Alexandria 25:20
Right.
Taylor 25:20
You know, “your life shouldn’t be defined by this one mistake or this one decision you made”. But you woke up that day and chose violence as the young people say.
Alexandria 25:32
Uh huh!
Taylor 25:25
You woke up that day and you got in your car and you chose violence on that day. And you had been planning this violence for a long time. And I think, to bring out these people– I saw a lot of pushback and back and forth about “we shouldn’t put these people’s information out there”. I think we’re far beyond that. I think we have far left that station of protecting identities of white supremacists. And I think to your point of not being– I’m not apologizing anymore for being upset. I’m not apologizing anymore for if I find out who that– if I see that person, and I know who they are, guess what I’m doing? Telling! I’m telling, I’m telling, I’m telling
(Laughter)
I’m telling, I’m telling, I’m telling. SoI think it’s one of those things, I don’t care anymore. You know that because their actions have direct have– their actions have direct implications on what they do outside of that. So these Olympians, and these firefighters, if there’s a house fire, and there’s a Black person, and there’s an immigrant maybe, and there’s a white person, well guess who they’re choosing? And even if it means losing their life and they can easily get to the other people. But if it means losing the life to get the– I mean, we’ve seen simulations like that. So this is not just mystery, this is based in also experiments and science and all those other things. We don’t have to get into that. But, I don’t know. It’s frustrating.
Alexandria 26:38
Yeah jumping off of that, I’m just thinking about the education system, because we’re talking about like, the implications that it has even for a firefighter choosing who they’re going to you know– to save lives. And I think a lot of people think that’s a very trivial thing to say like, “Oh, it’s not like that. It wouldn’t come down to that”. But like you said, there’s been simulations and people choose whoever they think is– whose life is worth saving more based on whatever arbitrary something; but we know racist, underlying.
Taylor 27:03
Yes.
Alexandria 27:04
I’m thinking about how children are being taught, and being guidance and counseled by people who literally want to see harm done to them. And how harmful that is. I’m thinking about one of my students from the summer, who told me that her teacher said something like, “well, slavery was a necessary evil”. And I said, huh (fumbles words)! That’s what you’re talking about in school? Like y’all are– you’re allowed to say that?And then this, this Black child has to be subjected to a teacher who would dare open their mouth and say slavery was a necessary evil and without slavery, we wouldn’t have– like it just– these are the people who are teaching our children. These are the people who are, you know, saving people’s lives. Don’t need to go too deep into it. It really makes me mad that it takes this for some people to go, (gasps) I can’t believe it.
Taylor 27:56
Right (laughter). Right.
Alexandria 28:00
On a funny note, though…
(Laughter)
I was reading online, and I saw a headline, I just found it so funny. The Guardian had an article and the title was in quotes, “I had no qualms”, and then it says, “The People Turning in Loved Ones for the Capitol Attack”. Again, this situation isn’t funny, but like you said, we find the humor in it. And I’m just looking at this woman who was quoted to say, “I had no second thoughts”. She said, “Oh, word? So my uncle’s sister– oh, she was there? Yeah, I’m calling the FBI. Telling!”. Like you said, I’m telling.
Taylor 28:35
That’s another conversation as well, when white people say their allies, you know I have a–I have a thing about allyship.
Alexandria 28:40
Mmh hmm.
Taylor 28:40
But that’s getting closer to what I see as an ally to me. I mean, it’s still not quite there, because I don’t know what you’re doing the other times when you’re not turning in loved ones (laughs). But I do think, you know, it’s that question of, what are you willing to lend to this fight against white supremacy? And if that’s not the length with– to which you’re willing to go? Don’t call yourself an ally. That’s a personal feeling. Allyship is not baking cookies at a bake sale for a Black child somewhere. It’s you know, making yourself uncomfortable. And like you said, having no qualms about this fight, not taking it in making it something else, but just saying this is what needs to be done. So.
Alexandria 29:16
And my favorite quote is always “get comfortable with being uncomfortable, because that’s where all the growth is”.
Taylor 29:23
Yeah.
Alexandria 29:24
People love to be like, “I don’t know”–Yeah, well, then you’d like you said don’t call yourself an ally. Don’t call yourself ally. And I always think about how I can be a better ally.
Taylor 29:31
Yes.
Alexandria 29:31
Cuz I think Iike, I’m not doing enough.
Taylor 29:33
Yes.
Alexandria 29:34
Yeah, I’m not doing enough.
Taylor 29:35
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 29:36
So I don’t even call myself an ally. I’m trying but I’m not doing enough to be like “I’m an ally” for all these other–
Taylor 29:42
Right.
Alexandria 29:42
I’m just not. Not yet.
Taylor 29:44
Right.
Alexandria 29:44
I haven’t gotten there yet.
Taylor 29:45
Yeah, it’s a big– it’s a big responsibility to take on, it is.
Alexandria 29:49
It is.
Taylor 29:49
It is and you should be doing the work–and its a continual work, for sure. For sure.
Alexandria 29:53
Like you have to literally be willing to put your life on the line.
Taylor 29:56
Yes. 100%–1,000% Yes, yes.
Alexandria 30:01
Right.
Taylor 30:01
That’s it, period.
Alexandria 30:03
Period.
Taylor 30:03
That’s literally it, period. That’s the bottom line.
Alexandria 30:05
Not necessarily even life or death, but your career at stake.
Taylor 30:08
Your career–Yes!
Alexandria 30:08
Your livelihood.
Taylor 30:10
Yes.
Alexandria 30:10
And until you can do that, I don’t know how much of an ally you are, you might be a good person trying to fight a good fight.
Taylor 30:16
And you sure can
Alexandria 30:16
But, you’re not an ally, not yet.
Taylor 30:18
Not yet.
Alexandria 30:18
Not yet.
Taylor 30:18
Not yet.
Alexandria 30:19
So I won’t claim it for myself in any of the groups that I support… So this week, because I did what does interrupting racism mean to you with Taylor, I started something new. And this is the audience edition. I asked some people online on Instagram, and on Twitter and on Facebook, what does interrupting racism mean to you? And I just wanted to read a couple of those out loud. The first response that I got was from someone who said, “it means opening up spaces, the way it should have been centering POC experiences”. So that’s what interrupting racism means to them. And then someone else wrote,” it means POC, but more specifically, Black people, living honestly and joyfully, and achieving all that they hoped we would never even dream of”. And I thought that was so powerful. That’s the audience addition of what does interrupting racism mean to you.
Taylor 31:17
I love that.
Alexandria 31:17
I love that… Now it’s time for the Recommendation of the Week (Transitional music). This week’s recommendation is going to come from myself and Taylor. I couldn’t decide between a few recommendations. And so I’m going to recommend a book and some music. I’m recommending a book specifically for white people. It’s a book that I suggest all white people read. For BIPOC people, it’s a great tool to suggest to others when you’ve exhausted all of your teaching energy, and just can’t bear to have another conversation about why asking to touch your hair is inappropriate, or why any host of other things that are said and done to you are racist or microaggressions or whatever else. Robyn D’Angelo is the author of White Fragility: Why It’s So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism. She’s a white author and professor of education amongst a host of other things. She holds a PhD in multicultural education and facilitates workshops to help people understand white privilege, white fragility, white tears, and other concepts; teaching them how they participate in racism. I’m not going to reinvent the wheel, so I’ll just read the opening paragraph directly from her book. White people in North America live in a social environment that protects and insulates them from race based stress. This insulated environment of racial protection builds white expectations for racial comfort, while at the same time lowering the ability to tolerate racial stress, leading to what I refer to as white fragility. White fragility is a state in which even a minimal amount of racial stress becomes intolerable, triggering a range of defensive moves. These moves include the outward display of emotions, such as anger, fear and guilt, and behaviors, such as argumentation, silence and leaving the stress inducing situation. These behaviors in turn function to reinstate white racial equilibrium. An amazing summation of the concept. Read it, let me know what you think. And secondly, this is a recommendation for Black and brown people. And of course, white people if y’all wanna listen, go ahead. But at times like these, what I think Black and brown people really need to do is protect our peace. I don’t know what that looks like for y’all. But for me, music always makes me feel better. Whether I’m up or down, whether it leaves me laughing, smiling or crying. It does something to my spirit. So I’m recommending several songs from about the 60s era. Music from these times always remind me of what my parents would listen to when we would all clean the house on Saturday mornings. Sometimes nostalgia for me is the best way to reset and find my peace. I hope y’all enjoy them. I’m sure you know, some of them. The first one is “Please, Mr. Postman” by the Marvelettes. The second one, “I Heard It Through the Grapevine” by Marvin Gaye. And these last two are Sam Cooke songs. One because I love his music. And then secondly, because I recently watched One Night in Miami, and these two songs were featured and it just really did something to me, “A Change On Come” and “Chain Gang” those my recommendations. Let me know what y’all think. Taylor?
Taylor 34:18
Okay, so my recommendation for this episode is– I think to your point, what’s really important for Black and brown people right now is to re-center. And also something that I find fascinating about Afrofuturism and Sci-Fi and things like that. Well, specifically when it comes to Black people, Black and brown people is that where we’re most literally writing ourselves into the future, which I think sounds kind of silly, but once you read it, you realize how therapeutic and how reaffirming it is to write yourself into the future. So I would always recommend my all time favorite writer specifically for this genre, but also just in general Miss Octavia Butler; Kindred is a great book to start with. It’s amazing. I had my grandmother– after her second stroke, actually, she read that book. And she– it took her a while, but she really, really spoke about how powerful it was. And I think it’s just one of those books where she’s writing about the past and she’s writing about the future, and writing Black people both into the past and the future, and just kind of realizing that we’re gonna be here, we’re gonna make it through this time, we’re going to weather the storms. It’s frustrating that we’re forced to weather such terrible storms. But it’s really a beautiful process, I think, to read ourselves into the future. And I think that’s something again, that sounds kind of meta when you’re talking about it now, but please read Kindred, you will not regret it. It is a beautiful, beautiful book and reall, really powerful.
Alexandria 35:55
We read that book in my– you read it before me.
Taylor 35:58
But you read it in school?
Alexandria 35:59
No, I read it in my book club, my cousin’s book club that she started.
Taylor 36:02
Oh, nice. Ok yes, yes.
Alexandria 36:03
So we read it together in the club.
Taylor 36:05
I didn’t know that. Ok.
Alexandria 36:05
Yeah, it was like our second/third book, something like that. I will also give a trigger warning for some people–
Taylor 36:10
Yeah, actually.
Alexandria 36:11
–because there were people in in the book club who felt like it was kind of heavy. And at times it was, yeah, so just be prepared for that. It’s not going to be like–
Taylor 36:19
It’s not light.
Alexandria 36:19
Unicorns–Yeah, it’s not light–
Taylor 36:19
It is not a light read.
Alexandria 36:21
It’s not unicorns and rainbows.
Taylor 36:23
Yeah. When I say history, I mean, particularly, chattel slavery.
Alexandria 36:26
Yeah. That part, that part.
(Laughter)
Taylor 36:27
Excuse me please, I did not mean to misconstrue.
Alexandria 36:30
Yeah. But also, like you said, it’s just it’s an important read to have that power to write us in the past and to also give us agency because there’s agency and I mean, obviously not full agency, but to also keep writing us into the future.
Taylor 36:44
Yeah. So that’s my recommendation for this podcast.
Alexandria 36:48
Thank you!… Let’s get into the culture (transitional drums)! I pulled up this video from Instagram. It’s on Amanda Seales’ page. I’ve bang with Amanda Seales. She says what she says so, I bang with her. It was a post she made the other day. Its a PSA: It ain’t hypocrisy, if y’all ain’t equal.
Taylor 37:09
Hmm.
Alexandria 37:10
And I just I thought it was just well said. Basically, what I got from it is that for those people who were actually upset and surprised and can’t believe these things happened and are like I– “this is not the America I knew”. Because we’ve heard that 100,000 times. If the America I’ve always known, but the point that she was making is that we’re seeing that it’s hypocrisy. But it’s not hypocrisy, because the people who stormed the Capitol felt that they had every right to do it, because they literally don’t see people of color, and particularly Black people, and let’s not forget Native people–
Taylor 37:40
Ok!
Alexandria 37:40
Ok, let’s not forget them because they don’t give a damn about them either. Yeah, she’s basically like, you can’t see it as hypocrisy because literally, they don’t see us as equal beings. And so what they’re doing, they feel like they have every right to do. Yeah, it’s not like oh, they think they’re better. Yes, they do. They absolutely do think that they are better than us. They absolutely don’t even consider us to be fully human. They never did. We came to this country as slaves. Mmkay, as property that people could sell and move and separate us from our lineages and white supremacists certainly don’t care about who we are 400 years later, as humans, they don’t. So it’s not hypocrisy to them. This is their country.
Taylor 38:26
Yeah, yeah. I don’t have much to add. I think it was a very– your comments were very well said. And her video was very poignant points were made. And I don’t disagree with not a one. We do live in a different America, you said that earlier that we don’t live in the same world. I mean, what is it like to look around you and know that the world is your oyster?
Alexandria 38:50
Mmh hmm.
Taylor 38:50
And that you can achieve literally– I mean, you know we say we could put anything– you do anything you put your mind to. Yes… Yes (laughs).
Alexandria 38:59
And!
Taylor 38:59
And (laughs) but for them it is different and it is obviously different. And we know the ways in which it is different. Yeah, I don’t have much to add it’s a very good video, please do watch.
Alexandria 39:11
Please do watch.
Taylor 39:12
If you’re able to.
Alexandria 39:14
Taylor and I just watched another Instagram video. This is on The Daily Show on their Instagram. And it’s a clip from some time ago. I don’t know when exactly but pre COVID-19. They were in studio. Trevor had on a suit and tie. He had his whole background and he had guests wit him, all that, so pre COVID. But it was an interview that he had with a former white supremacist, former White supremacist weighs in on you know, on whether or not Trump is a white nationalist.
Taylor 39:43
It was interesting to hear what I former– what was he a former white nationalist?
Alexandria 39:50
Yes.
Taylor 39:51
Had to say it was kind of things we already knew. But it was interesting to hear it coming from him. I think one thing he said that was interesting was, the same tactics that Trump uses to rile up his group of people or his supporters, are the same tactics that white nationalists– white nationalists or white supremacists?
Alexandria 40:10
Yeah.
Taylor 40:11
–use
Alexandria 40:11
They kind of equate so, yeah.
Taylor 40:12
Yeah or like white extremist groups are used to take people from the garden– he said, the garden variety racism to some thoughts that are more extreme. And I think that’s what’s interesting. And I think it kind of ties nicely back to the thought I brought up earlier of the thing that was most frightening about the storm of the Capitol. And the thing that’s most frightening about Trump’s presidency in general, is that he inspired so many people to act in a way that maybe they’ve always wanted to, but they never felt comfortable doing. Or they never–or maybe they didn’t accept, they didn’t think was okay, or whatever it may be. And then he inspired them to act in a way that was so you know, against what we had deemed, quote unquote, all in quotes that we had deemed as society to be okay. And so I think, when he’s talking about that, I think that it really hits the nail on the head of those tactics were so important that and that’s why I think whenever people say Trump is stupid, I always disagree. I think when people boil it down to anyone, these white nationalists are– well, I won’t use them, but Trump specifically and calling him stupid or an idiot; I think that takes away from the evil that he does. I think it implies that he does things without thinking and he’s just stumbling around and just a bumbling, you know, guy that doesn’t know what he’s doing. I think that makes it a lot more innocent. I think the evil part of what he does, and the part to me that’s much, much more dangerous is that he’s not stupid. He’s not a rambling idiot. He’s–every single word he says he chooses on purpose. Now he has moments where–
(Laughs)
–the brain is a little fried.
Alexandria 41:30
He also has speech writers to guide him along, to guide him along.
Taylor 41:54
Right. Right, right, right. The brains a little fried sometimes. But when the words– each single word he chooses when he’s speaking to his supporters, is so much so that he inspires them and gives them the energy and the also the okay and the permission to wild– wild out. So I think that what he said was just really that that part, I think of what he said was really important for me.
Alexandria 42:22
Like you said, he didn’t say anything that we can already know. But I’ve read in the comments somewhere, somebody said something like, “Thank you, I need to just see this, to know that it is possible for people to change their mind about race”. And again, it’s not our job to make sure that they do it. But but to know that it’s possible, because he’s apparently the Godson of David Duke. So if the Godson–
Taylor 42:44
Hmm! Ok hmm.
Alexandria 42:44
–of David Duke could change his mind–
Taylor 42:46
Yeah.
Alexandria 42:47
–then, you know, it’s not impossible for other people to really come to the text and come to the table and be willing and open to understanding that they’ve been taught a lie. They’ve been taught that whiteness is supreme, and whiteness is not even real… So now, on a bright note, I want to talk about the inauguration. It was today!
Taylor 43:07
It was today.
Alexandria 43:09
Yeah, we’re recording today on Wednesday, January 20, 2021.
Taylor 43:14
Yes.
Alexandria 43:14
Inauguration Day. And the last time I was excited about Inauguration Day, was, well, probably the only times that was ever excited about Inauguration Day (laughter) was in 2008. In 2012.
Taylor 43:26
Yes.
Alexandria 43:27
And then today because, Fascism is dead. So… Or is it, anyway?
Taylor 43:32
Woooo woo!
Alexandria 43:33
Okay.
Taylor 43:34
Okay.
Alexandria 43:35
Trump is gone. Yeah, Inauguation day. I don’t have anything political to say about it, honestly.
Taylor 43:41
And that’s okay.
Alexandria 43:42
(Laughs) Yeah, I just wanted to just note it.
Taylor 43:44
Yeah, it was today. An interesting day indeed. Someone made a tweet. And I think we’ve heard this before. It cracks me up its like, “Thank you. Now we’re back to the racism we grew up on”.
Alexandria 43:56
Yes, yes!
Taylor 43:56
I was just like, that is…yes (laughs). Back to the good old racism we grew up on and know oh, so well.
Alexandria 44:04
And know oh, so well.
Taylor 44:06
What a time. What a life.
Alexandria 44:08
I will say though. Not that– I mean, I wouldn’t say I’m grateful that it happened but I will say that it happened and it exposed so many people–
Yes, yes.
–who thought they had four more years of living in this exposure. But psych! Now we’re back to regular racism. And guess what? During our regular racism, it’s unacceptable to openly say racist and nasty things because you will lose your job for that.
Taylor 44:30
You will.
Alexandria 44:32
I’m kind of scared and sad because we’re going back now to people saying, “well, technically, that’s not racist”, or “I don’t know if that’s racist”. So that’s a little you know– the whole face value thing for me it was like, great.
Taylor 44:46
It was nice.
Alexandria 44:46
So that’s a racist. That’s a racist. That’s a racist.
Yes.
Nobody’s gonna deny that what they said and did was wrong.
Taylor 44:51
Yes.
Alexandria 44:52
And now we’re heading back to closeted racists
Taylor 44:54
Quiet racists, yeah.
Alexandria 44:55
Quiet racists.
Taylor 44:55
Which, arguably, I don’t know– is more dangerous, but equally let’s say that.
Alexandria 45:00
Yeah.
Taylor 45:00
Arguably, equally as dangerous. But the fits, they got their fits off.
Alexandria 45:06
Whew! The fits.
Taylor 45:06
For sure. They girls got their fits off. We have a Black VP, Black and Indian woman VP.
Alexandria 45:12
Right.
Taylor 45:12
It’s an interesting day for me. I have a million thoughts about it.
Girl, no I hear you.
Its just a mixed feeling–mixed feelings. I’m excited to move into an era where at least the President is open for change and wants to speak with us and has a VP that– you know, I think at the very least, they’ll do things out of how it looks, out of the optics (laughs).
Alexandria 45:36
Yeah, yeah.
Taylor 45:36
I’m like, at the very least we’ll get some optics things
Alexandria 45:36
At the very least.
Taylor 45:39
At the very least, and you know, I’m excited to have new people in office for sure. And I’m hopeful. I’m trying not to slip into pessimism. I’m excited.
Alexandria 45:51
Yeah, yeah.
Taylor 45:51
And I’m trying to stay hopeful. But I do think that there’s there’s something very, very wrong with our government that goes far beyond who our President is–
Alexandria 46:00
Abosolutely.
Taylor 46:01
And goes into– bleeds into every single part of our governmental structure. Yeah, there’s a lot of work that needs to be done. And Trump also did a doozy on us.
Alexandria 46:10
Whew!
Taylor 46:10
So there is going to be a lot of work being undone. I just saw– I got a notification today that already, Biden has like got straight to work because–
Alexandria 46:19
Yup, he signed 15 Executive Orders.
Taylor 46:22
Yes.
Alexandria 46:23
On his first day!
Taylor 46:24
On his first day, so hot off the press.
Alexandria 46:26
Cuz we–yeah, anyway.
Taylor 46:29
So yeeeeah. So yeah, so we’ll see. We’ll see.
Alexandria 46:32
Okay. I just I can’t not say that Michelle Obama–
Taylor 46:35
Oh!
Alexandria 46:35
–is still a fashion icon.
Taylor 46:37
Yes!
Alexandria 46:39
And she looked ah-mazing–
Taylor 46:40
Yes!
Alexandria 46:40
–in that burgundy.
Taylor 46:42
Gorgeous.
Alexandria 46:42
Regal. (Taylor co-signing audibly) Royal. (Taylor co-signing) Opulent. Hair on kah-cao! And still had a mask on. See cuz y’all keep thinking that masks are about to cramp y’all style. She looked ah-mazing!
Taylor 46:54
Yeah.
Alexandria 46:43
Everybody knew exactly who she was. Ain’t nobody had to be like, “Who is that?”. It was Michelle.
Taylor 46:43
Michelle. She looked amazing.
Alexandria 46:43
Well, we back. I mean, back to business as usual, for now until– I feel like Trump is like one of those stupid villains and in a corny movie, that’s like, “Haha, I’ll return!”. I feel like we have not heard the last of him or his minions.
Taylor 47:18
Oh, definitely not. He’s somewhere throwing a temper tantrum.
Alexandria 47:21
Absolutely. Kindergarten-Frat boy.
Taylor 47:23
Somewhere like just really yelling at the person serving him dinner (laughs) and pitching a fit and throwing food on the floor.
Alexandria 47:31
Yes.
Taylor 47:31
I believe it.
Alexandria 47:32
Yes. I really wish we could have had like an inside camera (Taylor exclaims) to show us what it was like for them to tell– like who woke him up in the morning? Did somebody wake up and kick the bed like, “Get up!”?
(Laughter)
Taylor 47:44
“Get on up!”. Threw a suitcase at his head like, “it’s time.”
Alexandria 47:48
Somebody sent a video in one of my group chats. That was um, it was like, check out this marching band this military marching band that passed by the White House playing hit the road Jack. What?
(Snickers and laughter)
Taylor 48:01
I love it.
Alexandria 48:01
See this is why I laugh sometimes because some of its comedy.
Taylor 48:04
Some of it really is comedy.
Alexandria 48:05
That’s comedy. That’s comedy. You’re not gonna tell me that’s not comedy.
Taylor 48:08
Naw, yeah you got to have a good sense of humor.
Alexandria 48:10
You just have to.
Taylor 48:11
Yeah, that’s…
Alexandria 48:12
That’s comedy.
Taylor 48:13
That is comedy. I’m sure he didn’t laugh. But (snickers) we are so…
Alexandria 48:17
Maybe Melania did though (cackles).
Taylor 48:19
She’s probably so grateful to go there like, “you had no business being the president, no way”.
Alexandria 48:23
Not no way. Mmh. So what does it feel like to be in America right now? If you could give it a rating, 1 to 10. And why?
Taylor 48:36
I mean, it’s so hard because I’m trying to think of what I have to compare it to.
(Laughter)
But I think I would probably give her– right in this moment, I would give America a smooth– I want to say 2 (laughter), because I’m really upset. But I almost feel like I want to give it– there’s different Americas.
Alexandria 49:02
Yes.
Taylor 49:03
And I almost want to give it a higher score because I’m just thinking about all the people that are working so hard against this. And not– I’m not gonna say that’s what makes America beautiful because people are doing it in other countries as well. We have to release that, that we’re the only people fighting a fight.
Alexandria 49:19
Right, right.
Taylor 49:19
But I will say that I’m gonna give it a 2 right now.
(Laughter) Mmh hmm.
If we’re looking at– I’m gonna say based on our politicians and our government, I’m gonna give it a smooth 2. I think it’s always really interesting when I read online people that are saying the fact that we have children passing away from malnutrition, in what has to be thought of as one of the greatest superpowers in the world. And you have people that don’t have, haven’t had clean water and years, in what is considered the greatest superpower in the world. And not that we don’t have the– there’s a difference in not having the ability to provide these things for your citizens. And then there’s a difference in making the choice of not providing it for your citizens. And I think that is something that America has struggled with–not struggled with, has chosen to do since its inception. And I think it’s something that hasn’t changed. And I think what makes me give it a 2, is that it’s particularly frustrating now because we have the communication, and we have the ability to speak to each other in a way that it’s no longer that you heard from a cousin Timmy, who heard from his auntie Susan, that Flint doesn’t have clean water. It’s now that we’re seeing the brown water running, it’s now that people are saying, actively saying we’re getting cancer or whatever it is. And you know, Flint still doesn’t have water, people are still dying, people have lost their jobs, unemployment’s at a sky rate– So I mean, I can go and list a million things. And I don’t have to recite back to you all because we’re living it. But I think what’s particularly alarming is the choice. Is that it is not for lack of resources by any means. And I don’t care who tries to tell you, it’s not facts (scoffs). There’s not a lack of resources, there is a choice to not provide those resources for the citizens. And I think that’s what makes me give it a 2. I would give it a higher score if I’m talking about my people. But I’m not, so I’ll give it a 2 I’ll give it to you.
Alexandria 51:11
Yeah, I think that’s fair. I struggled with a number. And yeah was in the same ballpark.
Taylor 51:17
Yeah.
Alexandria 51:17
Because I said to myself; I said, “How do you do this, one to 10?”. I said “Five? No”.
Taylor 51:21
Nooo! That’s 50% (laughs).
Alexandria 51:22
50%? Nooo! And you know, I thought about 2, but I gave it a 3.
Taylor 51:27
Sure, I like 3.
Alexandria 51:28
A strong 3. Its one of my favorite numbers.
Taylor 51:31
Good number. Strong number.
Alexandria 51:32
Not a great number to have an a rating scale.
Taylor 51:34
Mmh mmmh! Mmmh mmmh (laughs)!
Alexandria 51:35
But you know, a 3. I gave it a solid 3. Yeah, for all the same reasons that you said. Ditto to everything that you said, 3 out of 10, would not recommend. Very ghetto. And you know we don’t use we– don’t use the word ghetto often because there’s so many negative connotations that come with ghetto. Even when like– there are many different definitions for it.
Taylor 51:54
Right.
Alexandria 51:54
But some of the first definitions that come up when you look it up, it’s talking about Black and brown people, and I just don’t appreciate it. We’re talking about the the qualities of the feeling in the air. And so yeah, very ghetto. Right now. I’m trying to imagine what people in other countries are thinking when they see like– “Yo, so y’all call yourselves Americans? Y’all think y’all so great”. Because you know, people, a lot of people dislike us when we go abroad.
Taylor 52:23
Yes.
Alexandria 52:23
They think we’re obnoxious.
And guess what? As a whole–
Taylor 52:25
We are.
Alexandria 52:25
–Americans are. I wonder what they’re thinking: “So y’all Capitol building, y’all let a bunch of people run up in there, take your Speaker’s podium? Stomp they boots on people’s desks. Chase security guards around a building. Y’all got people with guns at the door to the House of– What?”. Very ghetto. This is the ghetto. We’re in the ghetto. 3 out of 10. That’s where we are for all the reasons that you said. Because again, it’s not because of lack of resources. And then this happened. And it wasn’t some outside person.
Taylor 53:00
No.
Alexandria 53:02
Everybody’s always worried about immigrants are coming in, they’re ruining the country.
Taylor 53:06
Nope.
Alexandria 53:06
A lie.
Taylor 53:06
A lie.
Alexandria 53:07
Not true.
Taylor 53:08
Yes.
Alexandria 53:08
You know, ruining the country?
Taylor 53:11
(Laughs)
Alexandria 53:11
Literally single handedly. Okay, anyway.
Taylor 53:15
(Laughs)
Alexandria 53:15
So that’s my rating.
Taylor 53:17
That’s a good one. That’s good.
Alexandria 53:18
Yeah… When I’m talking on this show, I’m always thinking, who’s my intended audience? Who am I talking to? And I think I’m really always talking to Black and brown people first. Because I want this to be a space where I don’t have to be, quote, “politically correct” or think about what I’m going to say or not ask questions that are gonna make somebody feel uncomfortable. If you feel uncomfortable with any of the questions that I’m asking, or the way people answering; I hope you stay because that’s where all the growth is, like I said.
Taylor 53:44
Right.
Alexandria 53:44
But if you don’t like it, you can leave. White people are definitely invited to listen to it. I hope that they do.
Taylor 53:49
Right.
Alexandria 53:49
But I didn’t make the show for white people to come and listen to me to sit down and like teach everybody everything.
Taylor 53:55
No.
Alexandria 53:55
Listen, take your lessons with you. Take what you need, leave the rest. Okay. But if we were going to have a message to people who are hesitant to call people who participated in this insurrection racists, or white supremacists, or domestic terrorists, like what would we say to them?
Taylor 54:16
I think the fear that people have about calling people– or about calling these white people in particular or white people in general, racist or white supremacist or domestic terrorists, is that it will force them to look at themselves–
Alexandria 54:31
Mmmh!
Taylor 54:31
–in a way that they are very uncomfortable with. And it will force them to hold their loved ones accountable. It will force them to hold themselves accountable. It will force them the hold people they look up to accountable. I think they’re very uncomfortable with that. And it makes them feel like people that originally maybe thought they were “good people”, quote unquote, or nice people because they aren’t “activ–“, in their minds, they’re not “actively racist” but they are passively, absolutely racist and white supremacists and terrorists. Probably in their own right as well, invoking terror for the advancement of a thought.
Alexandria 55:05
Right.
Taylor 55:06
So I think that’s what it is. And I think if the people that are hesitant to call, I would just– I think sometimes lines of questioning seem annoying, but they get you to get to the root of why you’re– why you’re afraid to do that. And I think I would just follow a line of questioning. I don’t I don’t often indulge in conversations with white people about other white people. But if I were to, I think I would just kind of go through a line of why are you uncomfortable? Okay. Why did what they said not seem so bad to you? Have you said anything like that before? Has someone you love said something like that before? Okay, let’s think about why that’s not okay. Like, following that line of questioning, I think would lead them back to themselves.
Alexandria 55:44
Mmmh.
Taylor 55:45
And that’s the root of it. So I don’t know what I would really say. But I would think– I think I would just more so challenge them to really just look at themselves, honestly. Because that’s where for all of these isms; racism, sexism, transphobia, you know, all of these things, most– most likely lead back to something about you that you are uncomfortable with. So yeah,
Alexandria 56:08
Yeah. On that same note, I think you mentioned something that comes up all the time, there’s this idea of people associating racism with “bad”.
Taylor 56:18
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 56:18
Therefore, this person is a “good person”, so they cannot be a racist.
Taylor 56:22
Right.
Alexandria 56:22
And I just think it’s a really ignorant way of looking at it. It’s a very simplified way of looking at racism. Again, because we share like similar thought patterns, like racism is a system of advantage based on race.
Taylor 56:35
Yes.
Alexandria 56:35
And there’s so much more to it, and it’s prejudice plus power. And I’m just thinking about that idea of, you know, not being able to separate your mom and saying what my mom did that was racist. That’s inappropriate. Now, don’t get me wrong. There are people who do it. Because I know people who are like–
Taylor 56:50
Yes!
Alexandria 56:50
–“No, no, no! You can’t come to my house for (laughter) Thanksgiving. My mom’s a racist”.
Taylor 56:54
Yes.
Alexandria 56:54
And I be like, “Oh, word. Bet. Not going to your house”. Not gonna go.
Taylor 56:58
Not gonna go.
Alexandria 56:59
But I remember saying this to someone, saying that these people are “good people”, therefore they can’t be racist is like– as if racists don’t own animals–
Taylor 57:08
Right.
Alexandria 57:09
–and then don’t take them to the vet when they’re sick.
Taylor 57:11
Right.
Alexandria 57:11
As if that they don’t help elderly people across the street. As if they don’t donate to charities. You think that because somebody is is a “good person” in some lights that they therefore cannot be racist? I was watching this– it was like a news clip. It was a journalist was like “I was there and I saw some of these mild mannered people at the Capitol and I was so surprised”. It made me so mad–
Taylor 57:35
Mmh hmm.
Alexandria 57:35
–because I was like that is further pushing that idea–
Taylor 57:38
Right, right.
Alexandria 57:38
–that racists are only people who hold pitchforks and tiki torches and are storming the Capitol. While many people did not storm the Capitol. They were standing there, which means they supported everything that was happening. So we just we have to get rid of that. And like you said, look at yourself. A quote that I came across. I love quotes, know that.
Taylor 57:40
Come on!
Alexandria 58:01
But I watched Spike Lee’s–well it was a Spike Lee joint, American Skin, the other day with my cousins. And there was this quote, that really caught me. The guys said something “like saying you’re not a racist, because you interact with Black people, is like saying you’re not a sexist, because you’re married to a woman”. It’s that simple.
Taylor 58:20
Right.
Alexandria 58:20
And honestly, I don’t have to go in if you don’t get that–
(laughter)
Taylor 58:24
If it don’t click baby (laughs).
Alexandria 58:24
–everything else is gonna go over your head, I don’t know.
Taylor 58:26
Go ‘head log out for my baby.
Go ‘head
Go on ‘head and log out if its not clicking.
Alexandria 58:32
And that’s what we got.
Taylor 58:33
That’s what you got.
(Outro music)
Alexandria 58:41
Thank you again for joining me for another conversation as we Interrupt Racism. At times like these, what Black and brown people really need is to protect their peace. Whatever that looks like for you. I urge you to take care of yourselves. If that means not watching the news for a day or three, meditating for five minutes in the morning, running, or just staying in bed a little longer than usual. Do that. Don’t let the world convince you that you have to just keep on keepin on like everything isn’t crumbling around you because, it is and you deserve the right to take a moment for yourself. Look out for the InterruptingRacismPodcast.com website where they will be episode transcriptions, Quotes to Live By and more, coming soon. Don’t forget to follow Interrupting Racism on Instagram with the handle @InterruptingRacismPodcast, on Twitter @IntruptinRacism and that spelled I-N-T-R-U-P-T-I-N Racism, or email at InterruptingRacismPodcast@gmail.com. Make sure you follow, subscribe, or whatever that function looks like on your podcast streaming service so that you’re first to know when a new episode lands and you don’t miss out on any of the conversations Interrupting Racism
Transcribed by https://otter.ai
Interrupting Racism Podcast 